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Kali’s Damage Drop-Off and New Overpenetration system! – Rainbow Six Siege

What’s up guys, Rogue-9 here and in this
video I want to take some time to fully explain how exactly Kali’s new the new Sniper Rifle,
the CSRX 300 will work in terms of its damage and damage drop-off and also how damage is
dealt when multiple operators are hit due to the new target penetration mechanics (for
the CSRX 300 of course but also for all other guns). Let’s jump straight in! The unthinkable has actually materialised. Players have been wondering about a
bolt-action sniper rifle in Siege for quite a while now but I for one was never expecting it to appear
because of the fast paced, close range nature of the game. To me, the idea of a really slow firing rifle
never really made much sense because to make up for the slow fire rate, the gun would have
to be super powerful, which could then easily lead to frustration when you
suddenly die to one shot out of nowhere. But, oh wonder of wonders, the devs seem
to have actually come up with a solution that might just work out. I still think that a slow firing gun like
this will be very challenging to do well with for most players but let’s discuss that more later on. As you will probably know by now, the
CSRX (… I’m going to say: “Combat Sniper Rifle – Xtra”) has a special mechanic
that allows it to down any operator, at any distance with a single body shot, even when
shooting through soft walls or other operators. This is a special ability that is a completely
separate mechanic layered over the top of the gun’s regular damage profile because
there is no way in which you could achieve this effect with regular damage modelling, right? Every operator has 100 hit points and then
an additional 20 HP of “down but not out” health. So in theory, damage of 120 or more would
mean instant death for 3 speed operators but at 120, 1 speeds would only take 96 damage
with a body shot, so they wouldn’t even get downed. Getting consistent 1-shot-downs is impossible and that’s without even taking damage drop-off into account. I think that adding a 1-shot-down mechanic
is a pretty clever solution here because it limits the frustration effect of Kali (at
least you’re not dying instantly to a single shot) but at the same time it makes
a bolt action weapon kind of viable. But, when you don’t hit the head (which
is of course an instant kill) or the body, the listed damage of the gun and the
behind the scenes damage drop-off still applies. So that’s basically arm and leg shots that
then over-penetrate without passing into the upper body or head of the enemy. And at this stage, before going into the damage
and damage drop-off of the CSRX 300, it might be worth interjecting some info about
how the new penetration system works. A few months ago, they changed
penetration to soft surfaces, this season they add in penetration to character models so let me
recap all of that briefly before we move on! For almost 4 years of Rainbow Six Siege, guns
used to be able to shoot through an unlimited number of soft walls which meant that in
theory, you could die to a single shot, through 3 or 4 walls, fired randomly into a
wall from halfway across the map. Well, maybe randomly but most likely by a
closet hacker who knew exactly where you were and then immediately typed into the chat:
“OMG WUT CRAZY HOW HOW HOW??? LMAO OMEGALUL WTF!!!” Getting a super lucky kill through multiple
different walls, was a pretty cool thing to happen (as long as you were the one
pulling the trigger) but let’s be fair, there would always be a huge dose of luck involved and
for the person on the other end, that kind of thing was just frustrating. And so, 2 season ago, the wall penetration
system was changed to so that all weapons (that had been released up until then) could
only shoot through two layers of soft surfaces (i.e. one wall) and after that the bullet
would impact the next surface but not go through. And of course as before, every surface that
a bullet travels through reduces its damage by 30% but since for standard weapons that
can only be up to two surfaces now, the multiplier can either be 0.7 or 0.49. Now the new system of character model penetration coming with Operation Shifting Tides makes things pretty complicated when you want
to sit down and calculate all of the different damage modifiers that are stacked on top
of each other but the way it’s looking to right now, it should actually make the game far
more consistent in practice (at least for most weapon classes). Way back in the day, arms in Rainbow Six
Siege used to have the same damage modifiers as legs (i.e. 0.75 for 3 and 2 speeds
and 0.65 for 1 speeds). That was changed ages ago though and arms
were simply counted as part of the upper body because of the way the operators carry their weapons. You could hose down an opponent with
well-aimed fire at the torso but because of the arms being held out in front of the body, the
actual damage you would do was quite arbitrary. Some of your bullets might get lucky and
pass by the arms and others might not, resulting in lower damage that had nothing to do with your aim. Changing the arms to be part of the torso
hitbox definitely removed this problem and I honestly would have been happy with this
as a permanent solution but at the same time, I think the new system is really cool and introduces some fine nuances that are a definite improvement. Arms have been grouped together with the legs
again with the old damage modifiers but most weapons will now over-penetrate the limbs
and strike whatever is behind and out of all of the strike zones that are hit,
it’s the highest one that will count. So for example, hitting the arms and then
the body, will count as a direct body shot and do 1x damage. Hitting the arms and then the head will result
in a headshot, which has now been confirmed as a 50x damage multiplier
and will always mean instant death. Only if you hit the arms from the side and
the rest of the body is not in behind them, do you get the relevant limb damage
multiplier and that all makes sense so far, I hope. Because here is where
things become a little complicated. You may well have seen this graphic over the
last week or so, showing us the new penetration classifications for each weapon class in Siege
and as you can see, there are now three different types of penetration. The graphic is a great starting point but
it does leave a number of questions open. Like what does simple penetration actually mean? Do the bullets from these guns go
through arms and hit whatever is behind them? What about legs, do they work the same? And when it comes to full penetration,
how many bodies are we talking about? Let’s just start at the top and work our
way down and first up is “No Penetration”. Shotguns and machine pistols will not penetrate
body parts and that basically means no change then because that is the
way guns have always worked in Siege, right? Well, yes but now that the 0.75 & 0.65 arm
damage multiplier are back, it seems that when it comes to shotguns and machine
pistols, we’re returning to the bad old days of Siege where you could aim straight at the chest
of an opponent but get almost randomly punished with lower damage because the arms got in the way. And headshots of flashed or stunned
opponents can still be blocked by the hands… I’m honestly not a fan of this. Ok, shotguns are extremely random anyway but
do we really need them to be even more unreliable because of arm shots? And if the goal here is to nerf machine
pistols, then surely there are more consistent and fairer ways of doing this rather than taking
us back in time to the point where arms could almost randomly punish you
even though your aim is spot on… Yeah, definitely not a fan of this. If you really want to keep these guns in a
weaker category to themselves, then at least allow them to do full upper body damage to
the arms… but even that is just a compromise really. Why should we still have to put up with
the old bullet proof hand in front of the face problem with these specific guns
when there is a system that helps avoid this issue? Shotguns don’t get a headshot multiplier
anyway, so they don’t matter and why should secondary SMGs randomly be
punished with an inconsistent feature like this? In my opinion, the best thing to do is
just to scrap the “no penetration” category altogether and upgrade these
weapons to the “simple penetration” group. It’s not really even a buff, it just means
more consistency and more fairness. The simple penetration group is worth
discussing as well, because not all is quite what it seems in this group. My initial assumption for this group was that
these guns would be able to penetrate limbs but not heads or torsos but
that’s not actually how it works. I ran some tests where I shot opponents in
the arms with another character or a soft wall in behind, to see if the bullet would
pass through and do damage and it does not! Simple penetration is not penetration at
all really, it is more of a mechanic that adds more consistency to the damage to a single character. So if the arms or legs cover up either the
head or torso of a character, the game can recognise this and apply the relevant 1x or 50x
damage multiplier instead of the 0.75x or 0.65x one. But no bullet actually passes through to do
damage to objects or other characters in behind. If you shoot an opponent in the arm while
it is covering their head, that’s a headshot but if you shoot the character in the arm
while it is covering another opponent’s head, that will do zero damage to the character behind. Does that make sense? It’s a weird and maybe somewhat counterintuitive mechanic but actually once you get it, it’s a pretty cool solution to
add more consistency to the game. You do the damage you were supposed to
do to the operator you’re hitting but you won’t randomly harm anyone else in
behind; it’s gamy and unrealistic but I like it. And finally, the DMRs, slug shotguns and
Sniper rifles are getting a bit of a buff under the new system because not only will they
use the “simple penetration” system as other guns do, but they will now also be able to
over-penetrate operator models and can hit whoever is behind that. When passing through operators, the
bullets lose 30% damage each time, just like when they pass through destructible surfaces. This is of course unrealistic and simplified
because you would imagine that a bullet that goes through someone’s hand should retain
more of its energy than one that passes through a bullet proof vest, then a whole
torso and then another layer of vest… But from a gameplay
perspective, I like the consistency here. This system is not supposed to be realistic;
it’s supposed to make the damage more reliable and therefore the game simpler and fairer. So shooting through an opponent will
always result in a 0.7 damage multiplier being used for each character you pass through. That means 0.7 after the first
one, then 0.49, then 0.343, then 0.2401. I ran a few tests to check what would
happen if your shot first passes through the arms and then the body of a character before going
on to hit another guy and the damage reduction is still only 30% instead of 51% so over
penetrating a single character always counts the same as one layer of dry wall, no matter which or how
many parts of that character you have to go through. Again, that’s not how it would work IRL
but I think it’s good to keep things simple and consistent in Siege. In our tests, we were able to discover that
when you hit the torso, “full penetration” bullets will pass through up to four
characters and then get stuck in the fifth person. In a five on five game, that’s really all
you want from a gameplay perspective and considering that all of these guns (except for the new
CSRX 300) can only pass through two layers of dry wall, that’s actually quite extreme,
especially when you consider that most of the R6 operators are
wearing some form of body armour. When you hit the arms or legs, the
bullets will over-penetrate even more. In our tests, we managed to hit up to 7
characters in one shot although, that could have been down to 2 of the characters not being
perfectly aligned and so my assumption here is that with limb strikes only, you could probably
hit literally all 9 of the other characters in the game. All in all, I am in favour of this mini
buff for single shot and semi-auto rifles. The weapon class is not in a bad place
overall but this will give it a bit of a unique edge and will help them compete with the
full-auto options just that little bit more. Still, going through up to 4 bullet proof
vest wearing characters is completely unrealistic, especially when the same bullets can only
pass through two layers of plasterboard. In fairness though, the chances of all five
of your opponents lining up for you are very slim, so maybe it doesn’t even matter. But that’s finally it, urgh… This was not meant to be such a huge part
of the video but hopefully you found the insight into this rather complex system interesting nonetheless. And while the system itself is rather
convoluted, I think the effect on the game will be more consistency and that’s a great thing. My summary is: Scrap the “no penetration”
tier, it just adds inconsistency for no reason. The “simple penetration” is great and
the “full penetration” tier could maybe be limited to just over-penetrating one
operator (so being able to hit two) for all of the DMRs and shotguns, with only Glaz and Kali
being able to hit up to 5 enemies in one shot. But other than that, I really
like the look of this new system. And now with all of that background info out
of the way, I can finally go back to discussing the damage drop-off and
penetration characteristics of the CSRX. The listed damage of the rifle is 97 points
but shooting the arms or legs comes with a damage multiplier or 0.75 for 3 & 2 speeds
and 0.65 for 1 speeds and those modifiers are of course layered over the top of the
armour modifiers for each operator speed and therefore results in following close range limb damage: 3 speeds take 72 points of
damage per shot 2 speeds take 65 damage And 1 speeds take only 50 damage with each
direct hit from the Completely Super Rifle Xtreme 300. Keep in mind though, that this gun is a “full
penetration” weapon and so arm shots will only do this damage if you don’t end up
hitting the character’s torso in behind. If the arms are in front of the body, it’s an instant down. The damage drop-off for the CSRX is
interestingly not that of the DMRs (25-40m) but instead, that of the assault rifles, starting at 25m
and bottoming out at 35m where the baseline 97 damage points go down to 78 point. But of course those are only a theoretical numbers because body shots are all still one-shot-downs and so the actual minimum damage can only
be limb damage of 58, 52 and 40 points against each of the three armour types. Rook armour adds another 0.8 times
multiplier and that gives us the same damage as long range shots without plates and over 35m the
stats will be 46, 41 & 32 but the plates will not save you from getting insta-downed with
body shots, even when you are playing on double health, like I usually do in my test setups. The bottom line for damage is that if you
hit the head or upper body, you will kill or take down your opponent in one shot but
for limb shots, you will need at least 2 or 3 shots OR if Rook is involved even 3 to 4
shots and that’s for direct hits only, when the penetration multiplier comes into play
this number could go up significantly. Like check this out, shooting through 3 walls
on this corner in Themepark with this scarily powerful rifle results in… literally 5 hp of damage. This means that landing the body shots is
key because to fire off the 5+1 bullets that you can carry in the rifle will take you almost 6 seconds, which gives us a fire rate of around about 50 RPM. Without the one-shot-down mechanic, this
gun would be a literal joke, it simply wouldn’t work. Reload speeds are pretty standard for high
damage weapons at 3.1s for a full reload and 2.5s for a tactical reload. The aim down sight time is another factor
that has been specifically chosen to limit the frustration that the CSRX can cause to defenders. Quickscoping with a one-shot-down weapon could
end up being intensely annoying to opponents and so the aim down sight time for
the rifle has been set at a leisurely 0.5s. This is slower than any other weapon class
in the game right now with the exception of shields and their 0.6s ADS time. This makes it very hard, if not impossible,
to react to sudden threats and forces Kali players to push while aimed in with a
scope that is labelled at either 5x or 12x zoom. I tested the zoom levels for myself by the
way to make sure that the advertised multiples are in fact accurate and… yeah, they’re relatively close. I took three screenshots while aiming at the
same location and then blew up the hip fire image to match those of the two different ADS states. This gave me a measured zoom of 5.29x
and 12.75x times instead of the advertised 5x and 12x but that’s close enough, I guess. The point is that this gun has quite a bit
of zoom and a pretty slow ADS time and for most players, this well mean that pushing
into opponents is going to be a challenge. Holding long angles and watching the
flanks is going to be what Kali will really be good for at higher level of play and in more casual
environments or amongst less experienced players, I can see her becoming a more extreme
version of Glaz, where she will frequently be the last surviving attacker, still sitting
outside with 20s left on the round timer. The CSRX 300 is a powerful but unwieldy
gun that might be really useful in some niche scenarios but in a heads up fight, most
defenders with regular SMGs or even shotguns at close range will almost always win out. The one-shot-down mechanic gives the gun at
least some viability but all in all, my prediction is that Kali will just be another one of those
attackers that end up with a negative Win Delta and will be a slight
detriment to the team most of the time. But that’s just my opinion! Let me know your thoughts in the poll on screen
now or leave a comment below with more details. If you enjoyed the video or learnt
something, feel free to leave a like and with that, many thanks to the members of the Rogue-9
Discord server who helped me with the testing of the over-penetration mechanic and thanks to
you for watching, I hope you enjoyed the video and I will see you in the next episode!

Cesar Sullivan

100 thoughts on “Kali’s Damage Drop-Off and New Overpenetration system! – Rainbow Six Siege

  1. The problem with simple penetration is when you are fighting against 2 enemies and you are aiming at the head of enemy 1 and then the hand of the enemy 2 blocks the shot. Very rare but still, it can happen. Not that big of a deal. Just throwing it out there.

  2. Rogue I think you're not accounting for the lucky headshot problem we've been having with smgs lately. Patch seems great to me except shotguns should do normal damage all around

  3. Does Kali one tap terrorist with her sniper rifle no matter where you shoot them? Since I play a lot of terrorist hunt for renown, I was wondering if her sniper rifle would be useful.

  4. I’m willing to bet the dorks will love the super rifle and she’ll be picked in half a second the first few weeks she comes out

  5. I really think LMG’s should be added to the full penetration category. That would be a nice addition to a weapon category that is considered bad

  6. Where does Maverick’s AR-15 stand in the the penetration system though, it’s classed as an assault rifle but acts as a DMR so how does that work?

  7. Rook armor should definitely counter her gun in some way, otherwise there is literally no counter to her. Glaz when he did 152 damage was pretty op, but when he was at range he wouldn't one shot down you, and when he was up close and you had rook armor he wouldn't one shot down you. Kali's gun isn't a one shot, but it is not too far off. If she lands one shot you are going to die anyway unless you have a team mate right around the corner ready to kill every attacker, all she has to do is hit you once and you are defenseless. I think rook armor should prevent automatic one shot downs, but lose the benefit of damage reduction for the CSRX 300 so at close range if you have pretty much any damage it will still one shot down or kill you, but when you are 30m away and a 3 armor with rook armor and full hp you won't get one shot downed, there is not reason that you should choose to be a slower target for the sake of being as armored as possible and still get instant downed from full hp.

  8. Just a thought….

    This change could MAYBE lead to another op. with a Rook like gadget but on attack (say an ammo crate instead of his woolly jumpers) that could provide the squad with a better penetration value or that could possibly give your guns a higher destructive value to walls, floors, doors/window barricades & castle barricades (say 1-2 magazine(s) to your primary weapon). Not a super o.p gadget at all and rather basic, tad dull some would say and maybe not a must take operator but would be a good support type operator, give them a claymore or smoke and you'd have a rather decent and basic operator.

  9. this is such a great improvement, bullets are at a premium with semi autos so having them do alittle bit more work is nice

  10. That’s jnteresting that Kali’s rifle can knock away Clash’s shield, making it counterable at a distance. Might start maining Kali just for that tbh

  11. Kali is a super flashy op, she’s not as broken as players during the first week of the TS made her out to be… but I certainly don’t think she’s going to be weak or underplayed. The fact that her gadget does Thatchers role alone makes her a viable pick almost every single attacking round. The other thing that people forget is that she also does bucks role… but at literally any distance. The ability to open that many lines of sight from that far away on top of being thatcher makes her even more powerful. I think most players would agree that the majority of the time they would rather have a C7E, F2 or AK12… but the one shot down in combination with her scope in the right hands will be ridiculous. Her ability to slowly swing and play the tiniest of pixel angles with a 5x-12x zoom while requiring substantial mechanical talent, is going to make the job of defenders holding static lines of sight at the highest level of play very difficult. I wouldn’t write off Kali yet.

  12. Nah i think that Kali will be fantastic on certaun objectives for her ability, her gun is just a skill cannon its her ability that is going to determine her pickrate. Think attacking balcony on Armory on Border, etc. or other hotbreach sites.

  13. Does the finka boost Increase the ADS Time?? it is a dumb question because that is a "yes" but I was wondering about the times that it will be. Thanks rougue you are the best and never stop making videos I love you and your stats!!!

  14. Wait, hold on… Why is the drone's light blue at 3:46? Did they change it to correspond to the team color rather than blue for defense and yellow for attack?

  15. I think DMRs should 3 tap window and door barricades like glaz's OTS (minus kali she just one tap them and that's fair she doesn't have as many rounds)

  16. I would certainly not be happy if they kept arms as torso level damage for the rest of the game. When they first implemented that change, all it told me was that they didn't have engineers on hand to properly fix the issue, and now they do. It's not rocket science to do bullet penetration in a game, it's a very old and solved problem. Until now, all we got was a config file tweak because no programmers were able to actually work on the game during that time.

  17. Make shotguns have simple penetration? Are you nuts? They'd be room-clearing with minimal effort, or rather, even less effort than they take now.

  18. It wouldn't necessarily be unrealistic for a 9mm round (i.e. a machine pistol round) to get lodged in your hand or limb without penetrating, especially if it was a hollow-point which is what law enforcement and swat teams will be using to avoid over-penetration. In fact, many firearms instructors will train you to hold your fist in front of your chest when practicing one handed shooting, in the off chance that your hand may stop a bullet from hitting a more vital area. Now, is it realistic for this to never happen? No. Not really at all. In fact, subsonic hollow-point rounds (again, almost all pistol rounds are subsonic) over-penetrate MORE often than they stop. Ironically, this is not true for supersonic hollow-points, i.e. rifle rounds — hollow-point bullets travelling faster than the speed of sound are remarkably consistent in their ability to mushroom and stop inside the first (human) target they hit. Notably, though swat teams will generally run hollow-point rounds even in their rifles, actual military will typically just run regular ball ammo in rifles, which would over-penetrate with great consistency.

  19. god damn r9 videos are like reading encyclopedias. back when they were made of trees and knowledge had a literal weight to it.
    back when education professionals thought ink-stained paper made everything magically more informative.

    this is proof they were wrong: I've learned more from your videos than I have from 5 years of high school and i can recite it on command to R6S plebs.

  20. I don't get why they had to add the "no penetration" category. It's ultimately a nerf for two weapon classes that didn't need a nerf in the first place. Like seriously, RIP secondary SMGs.

  21. 15:57
    Rogue-9: "2.5 secs. for a tactical reload"
    Counter with 3 digits after the dot: Am I a joke to you?

    It's 2.4, even closer to 2.3.

  22. simple penetration means it can penetrate only the limbs of one operator, full penetration means it can penetrate more than one operator, and no penetration means no penetration

  23. Sometimes I click on his videos just to watch how bad he is at the game. How are you even a YouTuber on this game when you look like you're playing with your phone?

  24. So if attackers are struggling to win against defenders across the board why don't they adjust the ACOG? Make it better and easier to line up shots. Sure some defenders would get the improvement but generally they are 3 armor and could use the change as well.

  25. Me: sees shotguns no penetration (ok that's fine I guess?) Hears that it may do less damage me: Hey ma get my dad's shotgun and a pig please I need to test something.

  26. I dont get why they added a bolt action sniper rifle. Minus plane theres not any good maps that encourage long range engagements

  27. wait, limb multipliers got removed? Fuckign hell no wonder shotguns are stupid rn.
    I also strongly disagree that the inconsistency is "for no reason."

    Considering that you can 1-tap almost any attack operator right now without even aiming with most shotguns within the average kill distance, the inconsistency is the ONLY drawback and sole way of filtering skilled players using aimed weapons from players crutching on the easy kills of using a shotgun.

  28. headshots are not always instant death, there was a macie jay clip of mira on yacht where he shot someone through multiple objects and it downed as a headshot.

  29. Shotguns that use bb based shells not having penetration makes sense to a certain degree, at a close enough range it should still have simple penetration. Smg sidearms should have simple penetration, assault rifles and lmg's should have full penetration.

  30. Machine pistols have no pen because then you are less likely to get random spray headshots. The DPS output is already crazy and there is no reason for it. Pistols have simple becuse of Sheild ops for the most part as well as flash and rush strats. Shotguns are already hard hitting when used properly and they are already amazing without limb pen. Adding Limb pen would mak it easier to one shot people from further distances. It makes a lot of sense to me as to why both are in the catagory

  31. So is Maverick's ar15.50 still an assault rifle, and does it get the simple or the full penetration? I can't afford the space for the test server and the regular game and am really curious.

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